Stress Itself Creates Stress
Topics:
“Stress Itself Creates Stress”
“The Life-Changing Effects of Trust”
“2025 Is the Year of Smiling”
“Diaphragmatic Breathing”
“Baking Bread and Creating a Community”
“Dream Imagery: Questioning Absolutes”
“Plant-Based Foods and Collagen Supplements”
Friday, March 21, 2025
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Brenda (Leonora)
ELIAS: Good morning!
BRENDA: Good morning, Elias!
ELIAS: And what have you been accomplishing, my friend?
BRENDA: Oh my, well it's been four months since we talked, and… It feels like a lot has happened, and yet somehow at the same time nothing that was really herculean, didn't require a lot of effort, which is good.
So when we talked last time – I think it was not our last conversation, but we talked about me having a conversation with my son about me moving to Pennsylvania and him staying in Texas with his father, and I had that conversation in January. It was delayed a bit around the holidays. He had a severe manic episode. You know, he had that event 20 years ago, and this was the first time he's required hospitalization since then. And I guess that was pretty dramatic, and it was his wife's first time to really experience him being in that state.
So before I tell you about my conversation with him, I was curious about what triggered that episode. His wife thinks it was stress over his job. Is that correct?
ELIAS: I'd say stress, and that that's part of it, yes.
BRENDA: Yeah. What is the other part?
ELIAS: (Pause) When he is expressing a considerable amount of stress, the stress itself creates stress.
BRENDA: Oh.
ELIAS: Because he begins to see that he's losing control, and he begins to panic because he is beginning to recognize that he can't cope with the stress, and that creates stress on top of stress. And then it spirals.
BRENDA: Yeah. And then he can't sleep, and that makes it worse.
ELIAS: Correct. All of it makes it worse. Because he begins to express considerable tension, and his body tenses, his mind tenses, and in all of it, it simply, in a manner of speaking, folds in on itself.
BRENDA: Yeah, it definitely escalated. So he ended up in the hospital for 10 days and major medication changes, including he was in the hospital for Christmas, which was really hard for his wife. But he got out, and he's back to work.
And I guess what question I would have for you is, am I supporting him in the right ways? Are there ways I could support him and his wife that I'm not aware of that I could be more aware of?
ELIAS: How are you expressing now?
BRENDA: We talk frequently, although we're not talking as much as before his event. I went and visited him, because he was supposed to come here and instead went there. And we have plans for him and his wife to come in July. So we're making plans to see each other physically more often. Sometimes we can go a year or so and not see each other.
I try to ask him open questions about how he's doing, how he's feeling, and just listen. He tends to be a little reticent about talking and sharing, but that's kind of the way he's always been.
ELIAS: And what are you thinking and feeling?
BRENDA: (Pause) I think I feel just so much compassion for him, and… I don't know; I think I just love him to pieces.
ELIAS: And do you simply tell him that?
BRENDA: I always tell him I love him. When we did have the conversation, I waited till we had been there a bit just to see and sort of get a sense of how he was feeling. I didn't want to have the conversation if I felt like it might trigger something in him. And we did have the conversation, and I told him how sorry I was, and I did tell him how much I loved him and asked him about his experience, which you had suggested.
And first of all, he said I had no reason to apologize. And when he talked more, he shared that what he experienced was that he wanted to live with his father because it was more stable, and I hadn't looked at it exactly in that way before. So I think it was very cathartic, the conversation, and that I certainly gained insight in the things he said.
What would you say?
ELIAS: I would agree. Continue.
BRENDA: It was nice that we did it physically because he gave me, you know, just this huge bear hug and told me how much he loved me. And I think since then when we have conversations that we're both more comfortable saying that and saying like, you know, I'm missing you, I'm excited to see you soon, and that we're just a little more open in saying our feelings.
ELIAS: Good. That's good.
BRENDA: And I also think just the whole experience of him being in the hospital, and Katy – his wife – and I really connected. And I gained a deeper appreciation for her support for him, but I think she also gained appreciation for my relationship with Zach. There were times when she called and said, “I need you to talk to him and help him with this,” and I was able to. And I've gotten to experience not only his love for me but his trust.
ELIAS: That's excellent. I would be very acknowledging of you in that.
BRENDA: And it also... (Crosstalk)
ELIAS: I would say that as a parent, many times you will have the experience of a stronger connection and more of an appreciation from your child when they're an adult.
BRENDA: Ahh. Yeah.
ELIAS: But you have that, or you receive that – if you allow yourself to receive it – you receive that when you are genuine and when YOU genuinely have moved in a direction of becoming more self-aware and therefore are expressing yourself differently, and they see it.
BRENDA: Yeah. I think, too, when I trust myself more, it's also easier to trust, like in this case, trust him and what he's experiencing, trust their relationship – which all relationships are different – and to trust them being together. And I think that comes in part because I'm trusting myself more.
ELIAS: Definitely. Definitely. That's what I'm expressing to you. When you are expressing in these manners with yourself, the people that you love and that love you see it, and it encourages their trust of you also. And it encourages them to trust themselves more.
BRENDA: That's kind of wonderful! (Laughs)
ELIAS: It is! It definitely is!
BRENDA: I think that happened around the holidays, and then later in January –
ELIAS: And this is [inaudible]. Also, I would say to you, my dear friend, that with this type of expression, this type of experience with a child of yours, that can be distressing, and it can be challenging then to move in a direction of trusting THEM. And that is ultimately important.
I would say that when you ask how can you be the most supportive of him, that would be it: being able to genuinely express trusting him, and that will be, actually, in a manner of speaking, life changing. Because many times as a parent, you think you trust your child, but when they express in certain manners, such as this, it's automatic to move in a direction of thinking – or making the association – this has to do with mental illness, and therefore, you can't trust THAT.
But that's part of them. And in that, actually the lack of trust – even though it's not expressed verbally – that lack of trust is recognized, and that actually has a TREMENDOUS influence. It also has a tremendous influence in the opposite manner when you change that lack of trust into trust. It's tremendous, the difference that it makes.
BRENDA: Yeah, I definitely experienced that. And also thinking about how he was feeling, I think I knew it was important to trust him, because otherwise it seems like it compounds his panic. It's like it reinforces the darkness that he's thinking is happening.
ELIAS: Yes.
BRENDA: And I think it gave him confidence, and trust also gives you strength.
ELIAS: Definitely. Most definitely. And it's not only emotional or mental strength; it's physical strength.
BRENDA: Oh, I hadn't thought about that.
ELIAS: Because it is a matter of the emotional and the mental are part of your body. The mental aspect has to do with your neurological system, and that flows through your entire body.
This is the reason that the stress compounds on top of stress, because there's tension in the body that creates stress. And in that, all of it is first being orchestrated by the body. And as YOU are aware, the body is difficult to ignore.
BRENDA: (Laughing) Yes! Mary and I were talking about that.
ELIAS: Aha! And I would say, in that, stress is equally as much a part of the body's manifestations as a broken bone.
BENDA: Oh, goodness!
ELIAS: Therefore, in that, I would also say that in relation to that, in association with trust, it can be very overwhelming to an individual, and they don't always objectively make the connections about trust being a factor in relation to anxiety, stress, and tension, and that they're all intermingled together. But the person that's experiencing it doesn't always make that objective connection when it's happening.
Later, or at different times, when they're not necessarily experiencing that overwhelming tension and stress, they might be aware that there is a factor of trust that they're grappling with, meaning other people's trust of them, because other people become afraid of what they might do. And in that, their fear of what they might do, as I expressed, is labeled with whatever they assign to a mental illness. Therefore, they don't see that as part of the person, per se; they see that as an infirmity and something that the person has no influence or directingness in relation to – but they do. And in that, the part that they actually do have the ability to be directing, if they learn how, is being able to manage and combat the panic.
BRENDA: Hm.
ELIAS: But what exacerbates all of it is that individual can FEEL the lack of trust of the people that they love, and that exacerbates the person's assessment that they are helpless.
BRENDA: Hm.
ELIAS: But – quite strongly, the opposite happens when the people around them DO trust them and trust that they won't hurt themselves, or that they won't be hurt, or that they will be safe and that they can keep themself safe – which is something that most people around these people don't trust, that they can keep themself safe.
BRENDA: Yeah, I think his wife, that was definitely challenging for her.
ELIAS: I would very much understand, and I would say that that is something that is difficult. But when you can learn how to do that, it is tremendous.
And what I would say to you is that you can be a tremendous example for her, because if she reaches out to you to help and you are expressing that example, and you can occasionally interject that the most important piece is to be able to trust that he is capable of keeping himself safe. And that is a life changer – genuinely.
BRENDA: I will watch for opportunities to do that. I believe throughout the time he was experiencing it, that I did in my conversations with him and how I responded to the situation, that I did pretty consistently respond from trust.
ELIAS: Excellent. Excellent. And sharing that with her will be tremendous also. Because he will look to you for that, and he will want it from her.
BRENDA: Okay, that is very helpful to understand. (Pause)
Wow! Well, that definitely has been the most significant experience. And as it turned out, Robert wanted to go with me, and we invited my mom to join us because there was really no way for her to get out there to see him and she had been concerned. So we had an adventure, the three of us going to see them, and it was a very… let's say intimate and enjoyable experience.
ELIAS: Excellent! Congratulations.
BRENDA: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. I've also been exploring a couple of other things that I was going to talk to you about. I was going to share with you when back at the New Year I was having my quiet time in the morning and thinking about 2025, and the phrase that came to mind was that for me, it was going to be the year of smiling. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: Excellent!
BRENDA: I mean, yeah!
ELIAS: That [inaudible].
BRENDA: It seemed kind of silly. (Laughs) It made me smile.
ELIAS: It’s not!
BRENDA: And I’ve discovered that when I'm stressed, or just, you know, just not doing anything, that just smiling changes everything.
ELIAS: Yes, it does.
BRENDA: So is that something that really affects our bodies neurologically?
ELIAS: Absolutely. Yes. Physiologically, neurologically, yes.
I would say that this is also one of the reasons that I expressed quite some time ago to all of you to simply smile. And in that, I would say not many individuals took that to heart. But I would say that perhaps you might start a new trend!
BRENDA: (Laughs) Well, it's been curious because I've been observing – since I'm going to spend a year smiling – it's like, what's happening? And you can't really smile and be slumped over with your head down; you smile, and it's like your whole body joins in. You straighten up a little bit, you… It just changes your demeanor. (Laughing) And I found out it's not so silly. It's actually pretty remarkable.
ELIAS: Ha ha. I would agree! And in that, it's not simply your face that's doing the smiling.
BRENDA: Yeah, it's funny…
ELIAS: It's your entire self.
BRENDA: It is. One of my yoga teachers is always talking about “smile with your collarbones.” And it is. It's just like you smile, and it's just like your whole body… It's kind of like when your whole body does a yawn or something. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Yes. Yes. Quite so. And I would say that is tremendous. AND it's also interconnected, because when you smile at someone else, it's challenging for them to not receive that. They might not smile back at you, but they're receiving it.
BRENDA: Cool. Yeah, I remember… I think you had the conversation with Jason about smiling, and he was talking about the impact it was having on people he would meet. And I just forgot about it until it popped in my head.
ELIAS: (Laughs) I would say that is an excellent goal.
BRENDA: Good! And I think, you know, it's also related... A conversation we also had previously was about the nerve pain I was having. My doctor had suggested that I go see a spine doctor just to get a baseline assessment, and he told me what I needed was breath therapy (laughs); that I had some scoliosis, and really what I needed to focus on correcting was diaphragmic breathing, work on posture and muscle strengthening around that area of my body – my pelvic, diaphragm, and all of that. And I have been doing diaphragmic breathing and started work yesterday with a physical therapist who is helping me with the muscles. I had no idea how hard it is to breathe correctly.
ELIAS: Aha!
BRENDA: (Chuckles) Yeah, so I think that is a good path for me to be on right now. I have, since the beginning of the year, created a balance between my yoga and my running. I did a yoga challenge at the beginning of the year and have since then been doing yoga two or three times a week and running four times. The weather hasn't helped me do much more than that. But it feels like the yoga balanced with the running, and now working on this diaphragmic breathing and my muscles, that I'm on a good trajectory. Is that correct? Or is there anything else I should see?
ELIAS: I very much would agree. Congratulations!
BRENDA: Mm. Robert has also been focusing on the diaphragmic breathing, and he thinks it is helping with the issue he had with the acid reflux or that stuff that was going on. Is that accurate as well?
ELIAS: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Definitely.
BRENDA: Mary was curious about it and asked me to share with her what I had explored. Is that something that you would say would also be effective for Mary?
ELIAS: Yes.
BRENDA: Cool! I will share with her the information. She thought Donnelly probably could jump right in and help her with that. (Both softly laugh)
So I think that's been really positive. Oh, I did want to share something else fun. I'm going to get to the shadows in a minute (laughs), but I'm going to stay with the fun stuff. We talked about baking bread – not just bread, but I also do… Well, mostly it's bread, but enriched, sweetened, like brioche and gibassier. I had the experience in Oriental: A woman opened a wine bar and bakery, which is part of what Linda and I had always thought we would do. She would do the wines and now all the boards, and I would do breads. This woman in Oriental is doing it on a small scale, so she opened the wine bar, but she hadn't really found a baker to do the bakery. And we talked about it, and she was interested in, like, me coming and doing a weekend bakery takeover, or being a guest baker. And maybe I will do that, but what I noticed immediately was just this renewed inspiration to really dive back into baking. And I'm having a lot of fun!
ELIAS: Congratulations!
BRENDA: Yeah. And I'm starting to share my bread more with people outside the family. One of mom's friends and her daughter like having my breads when I make it, so I've found willing people to test and enjoy the bread. So that has been, I think, a really big shift in me, allowing myself to do that and realizing it's important to me and to make time happen for it.
ELIAS: Congratulations. Good. That is very good.
BRENDA: I can feel the difference just having back [being] more centered. And I'm still going to do baskets. I'm going to make a basket for breads and have designed it in my head, and we'll get to that soon. And I've also been connecting with the bakers at work more, one in particular that has a PhD I think in political science and decided to be a baker, kind of like me. And I love sharing and talking with him and other bakers I've known for a long time. So I feel like in some ways, I may be moving toward how do I do it more and get a community connection?
ELIAS: Hm. Very well. I would say, have you had any ideas? You're already moving in that direction, obviously.
BRENDA: Yeah, yeah. I'm already thinking about if I did the bakery takeover, what breads and things I would want to make. But I've also had a thought of even asking this baker if he wanted to do that for a weekend.
ELIAS: That's what I mean. You're already moving in those directions.
BRENDA: Yeah.
ELIAS: Doing, not simply thinking about.
BRENDA: Yes. And it kind of builds. You know, you start doing it, and pieces just happen.
ELIAS: Correct.
BRENDA: A curious thing is we have two ovens, a double oven in the barn, and they haven't been working reliably. So I'm still making and doing all the breads there, but I've started baking in the house again, and I like that. I like that there's baking happening in the house as well.
ELIAS: Ah, yes. It creates a very different atmosphere.
BRENDA: Yeah, there's something about the smells, and there's something about sharing bread and… and just bread. Bread is absolutely amazing. (Both laugh)
ELIAS: And it creates a very homey experience.
BRENDA: Yes. Yeah, it just adds warmth and texture and smells.
ELIAS: Yes.
BRENDA: All those things I like.
ELIAS: Sense input. (Chuckles)
BRENDA: Oh, that reminds me of a dream or something I had. The other night, I woke up just startling – I assume I woke up – and every sense was gone. It was just gone.
ELIAS: Ah!
BRENDA: All that was there was my mind. And it was so unfamiliar and jarring – and scary! What WAS that?
ELIAS: And your assessment first?
BRENDA: Well, I thought, am I dead? Is this what death is like? (Laughing)
ELIAS: No, that is not what death is like. Therefore, that's a question that if that ever happens again, you can very much assure yourself you're not dead. (Laughs)
BRENDA: Okay. I'm really not sure.
ELIAS: First of all, I would say that it is an example of how strongly you rely on your senses – and there's nothing wrong with that; don't misinterpret. But also, it's important to remember that your sense input is expressed in a manner that is very absolute. This is also the reason that you rely on it so much, because it is the one thing in your experience that is always absolute. Therefore, in a manner of speaking, you look at it as being very dependable – until it's not. (Chuckles)
And I would say that this dream imagery was to remind you that anything that is absolute must be also looked at from an angle of questioning, because nothing is absolute. Therefore, even that piece of all of your senses being gone and that being the opposite absolute, is suspect.
And in that, rather than being afraid of what is so unfamiliar to you, in that your senses are gone, seeing that that's simply the opposite absolute, and being able to then stop and question that: What are you presenting to yourself? You're presenting to yourself the subject of absolutes and how one absolute makes you feel safe and secure, and the other absolute of the same subject makes you feel afraid.
BRENDA: Yes. It was definitely startling to suddenly have that. Which is curious, because sometimes meditating, at least your senses get so quiet or in the background, it can be peaceful. But this, I think, just because it happened so… I just felt like instant, that it was startling.
ELIAS: Yes, it's understandable. And also, when you are meditating, there is somewhat of an underlying expectation that your senses will quiet or even stop, that you won't have sense input unless you ask for it. Therefore, you're not afraid with THAT experience, because you expect it at times. And in that, it's not something that is jarring to you. And also, you are correct: It doesn't happen suddenly. It happens gradually.
BRENDA: So I guess my takeaway then from that would be to see it sort of as a nudge to be aware of more of the fluidity of things versus them being so solid and absolute.
ELIAS: Correct.
BRENDA: Cool! Well, that's… I had a brain question. It feels like in some ways I'm experiencing more connections to my subjective consciousness activity.
ELIAS: Good!
BRENDA: Yeah, but it also feels like it creates some little diminished focus in the objective. Does that make sense?
ELIAS: Why? Or how?
BRENDA: Because I think sometimes when I slip to that subjective, I'm not totally paying attention to the objective. (Laughs) That's like, “Oh, wait. I just blinked out for a period. What did I miss?”
ELIAS: (Laughs) I would say that you are correct, that when you are attempting to pay attention to your subjective, you're not paying as much attention to the objective, and that's why it seems that that is less focused. It’s simply a matter of attention.
BRENDA: So it's nothing to be concerned about.
ELIAS: And learning how to pay attention to both. Learning how to be aware of both in how they are complementing each other and how they are in harmony with each other.
BRENDA: Okay. So it's sort of a building process – not that there's anything wrong with my brain. I will learn to navigate both at the same time. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Correct. No, there's nothing wrong with your brain. (Both laugh)
BRENDA: I think there are people who would argue with that! (Both laugh again) Very good.
Well, a couple of body consciousness questions. I know you were talking with someone recently about whole foods, and we've had that same conversation where you recommended eating whole foods. For the most part, I think in our households that we cook a lot of our own food from scratch. However, Robert and I have been creating – well, I guess I've been creating – plant-based alternatives to like burgers and meatloaf and a spicy spaghetti sauce. But I use a product; it's a plant-based product, but it's still a product that I guess you would say is manufactured process – you know, it's a meat substitute. Is that doing something that's more beneficial or more harmful? What are your thoughts on those kinds of products?
ELIAS: I would say, first of all, if the majority of what you are consuming is whole foods, then that is what is important. I wouldn't be expressing to anyone that has lived in your society from birth and has been indoctrinated with the propaganda about food that you have been throughout your entire lives, I would not be expressing to any of you to only be eating whole foods and nothing else ever. That would be entirely unrealistic. And I would say that it's also similar to expressing to any of you to never eat any sugar.
BRENDA: Right.
ELIAS: That's very unrealistic also.
I would say that another piece is about acknowledging certain aspects of convenience. I'm well aware that eating whole foods is much more work. And in that, could you create your own plant-based meat substitute? Of course you could. Would it be labor intensive? Of course it will be. And in that, that's not necessarily something that may be attractive to you. And therefore, in that, I would say that if you're paying attention to the ingredients, yes, it is a processed food; but if it's not the mainstay of what you are consuming, then I would say that it's fine.
BRENDA: Yeah, and [we] probably consume it once or twice a month at max. And it's never soy based.
ELIAS: And that's not much.
BRENDA: Okay.
ELIAS: Therefore, I would say that that's fine.
BRENDA: Cool.
ELIAS: And – food in your culture and in many other cultures is not only for fuel or for maintaining the body. It's also something that you engage because you enjoy: You enjoy the sense input of the flavors, and it's a social activity.
BRENDA: Definitely in our household.
ELIAS: Therefore, those are factors also that what type of food you are preparing is partially based on the social aspect.
BRENDA: Yes. Oh, very much. And the activity of preparing food together. Like tonight, Robert and I'll go run and do our stuff and then we will prepare dinner. Though I am cooking my own black beans instead of using canned, but I prefer it. A lot of it is the taste of fresh whole foods is so much better.
ELIAS: Yes!
BRENDA: That alone tells you something.
ELIAS: Yes, definitely. I would say that's definitely a significant piece.
BRENDA: Yes.
ELIAS: That you choose to engage certain foods in certain manners because of the flavor.
BRENDA: Yes. We're making homemade mole sauce today because of the flavor and the smell and the taste. (Both chuckle)
Related somewhat to that, Linda and I have been taking supplements, and Robert and his son do. And his son, I think he must have talked to ChatGPT or one of the AI things, and it told him that the three most important supplements that we can take are turmeric – curcumin – some kind of fish oil, and vitamin D. Would you agree with that assessment?
ELIAS: I'd say that those are important for most people, yes.
BRENDA: Okay. Well, we got checks on that. I added salmon oil; is that a good form of fish oil?
ELIAS: Yes.
BRENDA: Cool! Well, the other question is, Linda and Robert and I all take collagen supplements. And Linda and I hate it. It's just, oh my gosh. We try to make ourselves do it three times a week, and we have to put it in V8. And then Robert's doctor told him that taking collagen supplements, it's not going to hurt anything, but it's not in a form that your body can actually use it. So, what's your take on collagen supplements?
ELIAS: I'd say congratulations for giving yourself that information, because it's correct.
BRENDA: Ah! Okay. So, we can stop taking our collagen! (Laughs)
ELIAS: Yes, you can!
BRENDA: Oh, yay, yay! Oh my gosh! (Both laugh)
[The timer for the session rings]
Well, I wondered how we could be having such a negative experience with something that could be so beneficial! (Laughs)
ELIAS: Aha! And now you know!
BRENDA: Now we know, yay. Well, she will be happy to hear that. (Elias laughs)
Well, I hear the timer going off. Is there anything else that…? I set a schedule for us to talk once a quarter because I think I'm doing really well, but I still want us to have conversations and to share and hear your take on things. Is there anything you would share with me before I head off on my journey?
ELIAS: I would say that that is entirely acceptable. And if something arises or you present something to yourself that's more challenging, you can always contact myself.
BRENDA: Okay, and Linda –
ELIAS: I am always available. And –
BRENDA: Linda said too to give you her wishes.
ELIAS: Ah, yes! And you can express that to her for myself also. And I would say that… mm, I would encourage you in relation to your daughter-in-law to be compassionate and a good example.
BRENDA: Thank you for that.
ELIAS: I would say that she can use it.
BRENDA: Very good. And during the experience, I became more comfortable telling her how much I appreciated her and expressing my love to her, and I could tell she appreciated that energy.
ELIAS: That is tremendous. That is tremendous. And I would say that that is something that will be very reinforcing for her also, and in that, encouraging her to trust herself.
BRENDA: Ah! Very good.
ELIAS: It's always reinforcing for an individual when the mother-in-law accepts them.
BRENDA: Okay. Very good. Thank you!
ELIAS: You are very welcome. I shall greatly be looking forward to our next meeting.
BRENDA: Me too.
ELIAS: In tremendous love to you and in great encouragement in all that you are accomplishing AND in this new direction with your breadmaking.
BRENDA: Thank you.
ELIAS: And raising a community.
BRENDA: Thank you.
ELIAS: In tremendous friendship, as always, au revoir.
BRENDA: Au revoir.
(Elias departs after 1 hour 4 minutes)
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