You Consider the Other Individual When You Consider Yourself
Topics:
“You Consider the Other Individual When You Consider Yourself”
Thursday, April 2, 2026 (Private/Phone)
Participants: Mary (Michael) and Anon X
(Audio begins partway through session)
ANON X: Thanks. Then we can go right into this whole series of trauma sessions. I still ponder and feel into and around what we talked about, my daughter, last time.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And the… the… there is… It’s almost like poles between this whole theme [which] is going on. On one end, we are not very compatible as adults, with our interests, by—
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: On the other end, we are.... We have a connection and a history and in some way a relation, even if it's not yet, not an active relationship, “a chosen relationship,” as you said, like for example I have with my husband.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And so the point is when I would meet her, and I know there are things that I just plainly don't like. I can tolerate them. I can accept them. And I know they are not actually my business, but they are somehow partially triggering, partially just saddening. Like for example, a tiny little simple thing. The place where she is living with her three boys is (a) way too small and (b) it's a place where I wouldn't even raise a dog. You know? It's a place that is not… It's very crowded. It's very busy. It's very much traffic. It’s very… The air is not good. There is not nature and nothing. And I wouldn't even have a dog in this area. You see? And so there, it's a simple thing. So when she would talk perhaps about some things, I know that it's not my business but some of the things would… I would have to like breathe and accept and be in in this, let's say, social worker mode (chuckles), observer/social worker mode. So I would have to go into that mode.
ELIAS: Which is the reason that I was asking those questions, as we discussed, to ask you or to prompt you to think about what is important to you and whether you could actually realistically engage with her without the expectations and without the judgments.
ANON X: Yeah, that's the point. Is it a plain judgment when it feels not good for me but I can accept it, at least conceptually, but emotionally, it's a little bit… or somewhat, whatever, intense, the specific thing would be unenjoyable? (Pause) Is it a judgment, then?
ELIAS: Of course, it's a judgment. I would say judgments are not necessarily bad or terrible. There are many judgments that you make in relation to your own guidelines.
ANON X: Yes, I understand. I kind of distinguish between judgment, which has to do with duplicity, and evaluation, assessment and everything, where the duplicity is kind of a little bit outside. It's not this typical idea of judgment, good or bad, but it's okay. I see it.
ELIAS: But it is.
ANON X: It is.
ELIAS: But it is.
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: Because just as, just as you expressed about where she lives, and your assessment of where she lives is a judgment.
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: And in that, that's not necessarily something that is terrible or bad. It's simply your preference and what you think of in relation to that place, that you wouldn't live there. As you said, you wouldn't even have a dog there. And I'd say in that, that is definitely a judgment about her choices and what she's doing, what she has chosen, and what you think of as subjecting her children to that environment.
Now; she doesn't think that, and I'd say that perhaps they might when they become older and then they will do something about it, but for the time being they don't. And—
ANON X: Do you mean the parents would do something about it, or the kids?
ELIAS: The kids.
ANON X: Okay, okay. Yeah.
ELIAS: Now; what I'm saying is, is that that's an expectation on your part in, in addition to a judgment, that she would be expressing differently if she was being responsible.
ANON X: Oh no, it's not. It's… No, I wouldn't say it if she was being responsible. It's just I have completely different preferences, you know. I—
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: I like, I like it when, when kids are offered the opportunity to have some simple connection to nature, like they could go—
ELIAS: I understand, but—
ANON X: They could go—
ELIAS: —they could might not care.
ANON X: Okay. You mean in the sense of children create their reality as well, and so they have a hand in where the parents chose to live?
ELIAS: Correct. But also, the children themselves might not care. It might not be important to them. In fact, it's not important to them.
ANON X: Nature?
ELIAS: Correct. What's important to them are their games.
ANON X: Oh. And do you mean video games or whatever?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Oh god.
ELIAS: But that's their reality.
ANON X: I understand.
ELIAS: Now; in that, what I was expressing to you is if you can let go of those expectations and judgments in relation to all of them, including your, including your grandchildren, because their preferences are not the same as yours either.
ANON X: Yeah. I guess it might have a little bit to do with that we are, haven't seen each other since… We are not quite five years, but nearing five years. And so, we used to go out in nature and have fun and play with them and stuff and have adventures outside. But since… since we as grandparents are out of the game, so to speak, there is not much of that anymore, like offered to them in that way.
ELIAS: Correct, correct.
ANON X: And so, they do what they have accessible. And I guess for a lot of city kids, big city kids, that's technology and maybe sports, indoor sports, or outdoor sports, whatever. I don't know.
ELIAS: With school.
ANON X: And school, yes. And you know I could, I could tell you things like… which, which sound like incoherent to me on one end and on the other end, it's understandable. But I'm not quite sure if I want to go into these things even, and spend the time on that. Yeah.
ELIAS: Meaning?
ANON X: Yeah, for example, when the kids are, because both parents are working and the kids are always in for… or a lot in foreign caretaking, you know.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And you never know how the foreign caretakers are, because you are not with them. But she would know, her mother, and she would know that I'm always on the side of the kids and that I'm taking care of the kids, and I'm a very pretty sensitive caretaker of the kids. But she would not give me the kids, but she gives them to any stranger. It's illogical on one end, but if she… if she rejects me, then it's logical.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: So there is two logics.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Yeah. This is things but… But I'm not sure. I want to go into a different branch of that, because in the first of these trauma sessions, you said that it would be a matter of surrendering to her. You used the word surrender.
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: And do you, do you think, or would you say that what you said in the second session, when we go, when we went deeper into the relationship with my daughter, and also the situation with my daughter, that that… that that – oh god – that that was covering the surrender peace?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: Yes, because if you are letting go of the expectations and of the judgments—
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: —then you are surrendering to her, and therefore then allowing her to behave in what manners that she behaves, choose in the directions that she chooses, and to make the choices, not only for herself but for her children, without input unless she asks for it, and she's not likely going to ask for it anytime soon.
ANON X: (Laughs) You can bet on that. (Both laugh) Okay. But there is a difference between surrender in this way and acquiescing, right?
ELIAS: Oh, definitely.
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: No, I'm not expressing to you to acquiesce to her.
ANON X: Okay. And the… the giving up of judgments, that is something I can imagine to do conceptually. I'm not sure how to go about it practically. Is it simply as a point of, “Oh, it matters not?” (Laughs)
ELIAS: Yes, but that's not always so easy to do.
ANON X: Okay? So what?
ELIAS: But, yes, you're correct.
ANON X: So to catch oneself and, “Oh, okay, I don't like this, but it matters not. It's their life. It's just one life in many lives. It's none of my business, and it would not lead to a good outcome if I go the other route. So… Ah, it matters not, and let's see if we can do something else that might be more relaxed.”
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: This, is it the general direction?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Or would you like to add, add something to that?
ELIAS: No, I would say that that would be correct.
ANON X: Okay, great. Okay then, would you like to add anything to the situation/topic with my daughter?
ELIAS: I'd ask then what would your parameters be, let us say, for establishing a new relationship with her?
ANON X: (Pause) Hm. (Sighs) (Pause) Well, first…My first…I would look for if we have anything which we can talk about and have a… like comfortable time with each other. And I'm not going to the direction of pleasant. I'm staying with comfortable.
ELIAS: (Chuckles) Very well.
ANON X: Yep. Because pleasant is a little bit more than comfortable, for me.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And if we would find topics or actions, activities, whatever, that allow both of us to feel comfortable with each other. But I guess I would keep it more like (sighs) not as if we were family or related in any way, biologically or whatever, but more like if we were colleagues or neighbors, or more distanced, inwardly, inside, I guess.
ELIAS: Very well. Therefore, if you were to write her a letter and express to her that you want to try to build a relationship with her, what would you say in that letter, and what would the guidelines of that be?
ANON X: Well, I would say, “Okay, it's…” I looked it up. It's not full five years, but it would be in December, it would be full, more or less full five years.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: And so I would, I would, I guess, word it like, “Okay, it's been a couple of years now, and both of us have…” How would you say? “We are not quite the same anymore. We have had a life in between. We have developed…” It's a little bit a language hurdle here at the moment. “And what would you think about a meeting and seeing how it would be to be together for a cup of tea in a neutral place, in a cafe or so, and just reconnect and see?”
ELIAS: That's a good start.
ANON X: That would be. And just, you know, have a little taste of each other, a little sniffle, we would say in German.
ELIAS: That would be a good beginning.
ANON X: And… And I would not, I guess I would not, in this... Actually (chuckles), I would go against my own normal…. um, let's call it pattern, for lack of a better word. Like for example, when I was getting together with my husband, I had a lot of questions and I had a lot of points on my list which I checked: “What would you do here?” and “How would you like that?” and da-da-da. So we made, we created a kind of getting-to-know each other, and what do we want and what do we not want. And if I would do us a fresh start with her, there was a thought in my mind to do that, a similar thing with her, what could we do with each other, and what do we NOT want to do, what do we, both of us, declare as like taboo, and…
ELIAS: And I'd say before that—
ANON X: Yeah?
ELIAS: it would be more beneficial to first simply move in a direction of asking her questions about her life, and—
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: — what she's doing and what she likes and what's important to her.
ANON X: Yes, showing interest in her.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Yeah.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Yes. That would be what I would be doing. And not I would not like fall… We would say “fall with the door into the house” (chuckles) and do the other thing. But I would, I would, of course I would just ask her about her life and how things are, but not in a very intimate way, but in a more general way.
ELIAS: Very well. And therefore, you would do this alone with her, without the children.
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: Initially.
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: Good.
ANON X: Most definitely, most definitely, and also without her husband.
ELIAS: Good.
ANON X: Because you said… You said that… Something, I don't have it verbally, literally here, but you said something like she is kind of waiting for me to initiate .
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And that was a surprise, because my idea and understanding was that she was quite the opposite of that, she was entirely blocking and not interested at all.
ELIAS: I'd say she's cautious, but it is important to her to have a mother and to have a family.
ANON X: Hm. Yeah, that was the point when she… when we had this family conflict. It was… It was not only this couple, but the other family, where it actually like started and then blah, blah, blah.
ELIAS: Meaning what?
ANON X: Oh, it was… It was… It was a situation when I had… I try to say it in in very few words. I had enough of how they treat my husband.
ELIAS: Ah!
ANON X: And I just really had enough – and I mean his son and the daughter-in-law, and I just had enough. And I said thirty years, it's enough. I've tried enough, I don't want to do this anymore. And then when my daughter... Everything became complicated. My husband was sick, and it… And my daughter, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, "I don't want to have a family anymore," because what I actually meant was I'm done with these patterns that are called family, but they are not feeling well for me. I'm more for like voluntarily chosen relationships and not for a default family that feels so un… extremely uncomfortable for me.
ELIAS: I understand.
ANON X: And that's why I said I don't want a family anymore. It's not that I don't want a relationship anymore, but I… Since my daughter went so, so… like blocking, I never cleared that up because at first, I even didn't realize that my wording was, from the chosen words, literally misleading. And then it felt like no. And the point is that my husband (sighs), he's still not good with relationships and with conflicts, and he avoids it and he's no, of no help. Like he's not taking any initiative of, “Okay, but I want a family and I want to da-da-da, contribute that we can have good relationships.” He just takes it as it is, is unhappy about it, and for a while he didn't go to the family, his family. He calls it solidarity but for me, it's not solidarity and… But he's not the guy that would take initiative like I would have in his situation, but okay.
ELIAS: I understand.
ANON X: Mm-hm. And that is his choice, and I am respecting that because anything else doesn't make sense to me. I don't want to push him anywhere and he doesn't want to move. So we have created a life around this situation. It's not ideal. It's painful in some moments to be in this situation, but I don't want to force or push anything.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: So… And for his—
ELIAS: That’s—
ANON X: Pardon?
ELIAS: — very understandable.
ANON X: Yes. It's again the same things. Like with my daughter, they don't take responsibility for their side. They don't even see it. They tell me that it isn't there, what I’m, what I was saying was there. And… And they call me, like (sighs) whatever, crazy. And (chuckles) so they are also, I guess, in some way not interested in even having contact. We don't greet each other when he's going there and I don't give greetings to them, and they don't give greetings to me via him. So that's the situation.
ELIAS: Now—
ANON X: Right.
ELIAS: Having established that you WOULD like to have a relationship and that you’ve thought about how you would initially contact her and what you would say, when would you want to do that?
ANON X: Okay. Oh (chuckles) at a time when there is a likelihood that she's not stressed. Not around holidays, not around peak days in business. She's a teacher now. Like I’d try… I would try to find a time when the likelihood is good that she's not overly stressed by her… by her daily life. I guess she's always stressed, but—
ELIAS: I was about to say.
ANON: Yeah.
ELIAS: But how would you determine that? I understand, not around holidays.
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: But any other time, how would you determine whether she would be stressed or not, because you're not speaking to her?
ANON X: Yeah. My husband, every now and then, has contact with her and I might take that into consideration. And apart from that, I just make a test.
ELIAS: Ah!
ANON X: I just try.
ELIAS: Good.
ANON X: Yeah. Yeah.
ELIAS: Very well. And then would you be engaging your husband and expressing to him that this is your plan?
ANON X: I haven't yet said it to him, told him. I'm waiting for a moment to tell him that I'm thinking in this… that I have begun thinking in this direction. Yes.
ELIAS: Very well. And what type of moment are you waiting for to tell him that?
ANON X: Oh, when we are both just relaxed.
ELIAS: Ah!
ANON X: Not… Not… Like over dinner or whatever, not planning some something like Easter fire or whatever, but just having a normal, relaxed day. nothing special, nothing special.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: Nothing special.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: Maybe sitting with tea at the fireplace or whatever, something… something relaxed.
ELIAS: Very well. That's understandable.
ANON X: Why do you ask?
ELIAS: Simply curiosity and to understand what you have thought out in relation to all of this.
ANON X: Okay. I understand. I understand. Do you want to add anything? Otherwise I would come to a different topic.
ELIAS: You may move on.
ANON X: Okay. Because you gave me three homeworks the last time and I told you about the previous, last but one, I guess you say. And I told you two, and I have the search. You said I have, I might choose one example with my father.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: Okay. And I have thought about a couple of them, and I guess I would choose one which might have, indeed an influence developed, an impact which created an influence in a way, on my later life. Which was I did something which he didn't like, or was not within his ideas of how I should behave, and then I got grounded I guess you call it, when you have to stay in the house and are not allowed to go out. And I was not allowed to leave the house, but he was in work, and I was… I don't know if I was bored or if I had something that I needed to do or to know or to get or whatever.
But we lived in a house with five houses in one row, and my friend, my best friend at the time, lived right next to us. So it was really like four meters, the front doors apart. And I went over to her, to do what I had planned to do, and I came back and he was home earlier, which I didn't know, which I didn't expect. And he realized that I wasn't there and that I had broken his punishment, the rule. And then he started to beat me until my nose began bleeding. And it was again around this staircase, and I thought this is in some way perhaps an influence that had more impact than I had ever thought of.
Because what my thoughts were then… Okay, I tried to stand up for myself and do something for myself against his rules, and I got beaten for it because I went against his rules. And because I have this pattern in my life that I often tried to do something, and then I stopped. And then I like… Sometimes, for a while – it's not that bad anymore – but for a while, I even destroyed what I did. And I thought perhaps there is a connection.
ELIAS: There is.
Now; (pause) THAT is an influence in relation to why you have moved in directions of trying to anticipate what another individual wants—
ANON X: Mm-hm. Okay.
ELIAS: — rather than looking at what you want and moving in that direction. You moved in the direction of what you wanted, and that is what happened to you.
ANON X: Yeah. I mean, I know you remember. We had the persecutor sessions, you know, when you had… When the child is small and the adult is large and strong and threatening, stand and mirror, you said, and everything. But when you are a kid and you are threatened that much, you kind of give up standing and mirroring. You don't even develop it strongly enough to… to… to be in this position anymore.
ELIAS: You're correct. You're correct. And in that, then you develop these behaviors that are influenced by those experiences. And in this one, you developed and have expressed for most of your life trying to anticipate what the other individual wants and what their direction is, and staying out of their way.
ANON X: It's so weird, Elias, because (chuckles)… I mean, we have been talking so many times about my relationship with my husband and the challenges we had with each other, or I had with him or whatever. And partially my idea was like that is what a good partner does. And that is also, I guess, a little bit our culture and religious upbringing and what have you, you know. But what I found is when I… When I and also when he, when we are like taking care for ourselves, the other one adjusts and the other one, it's just normal. It's the most normal thing in the world. We support each other and it's not a question of, “Oh, but I have to look at you first,” and what have you. But no, it's like, “Okay, I have to go to school,” “I have to go to my job.” And nobody would say, “But no, but you have to stay home because I need this and that.” It's almost the same, but with the same ease and simplicity and clarity. But with the others, with the other idea that you have to take care, and then you drop everything If your partner needs something (chuckles), it’s… it's like a convoluted kind of thinking.
ELIAS: Yes, it is.
ANON X: While when you say, “Oh no. Sorry, I don't have time at the moment. Just wait a moment, but I'm for you, as soon as I can,” and maybe I can even tell the time or whatever, then it’s just… it just structures itself, and everybody's fine, and it works. And the best sentence I ever said to him is, “Put yourself first.” It's much better. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Correct. Yes. Yes.
ANON X: It's much better, since he really, really like inhaled it almost, and implements it. It's much better.
ELIAS: I very much understand. And that was what I was expressing to you in our previous conversation, because you kept moving in the direction of, “But my daughter doesn't want this,” or “My daughter doesn't want that,” or “She would not be happy with this or that.” And in that, there was this continuous deflection.
ANON X: Yeah. I understand. Wait a moment. I had a thought. Now it's gone. I hope to catch it again. (Pause) Yeah. This is this, I don't want to… I don't want to be an ego shooter and not have the other in, in consideration, so to speak.
ELIAS: I understand that. But you consider the other individual when you consider yourself. Just as you just said with your husband. (Pause)
ANON X: (Sighs) It’s like—
ELIAS: And it flows, and it's much more natural. But when you are in a direction of thinking about the other individual first, and what are they thinking and what are they feeling and what do they want, then it becomes very convoluted.
ANON X: Yes. But with my husband, it seems now easier because it's established and it completely works for both of us. And…
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: And with others, it might feel a little bit more like as if I would come from an ego-shooter attitude.
ELIAS: But you're not.
ANON X: But I'm not. Okay. I guess there is room to grow. (Laughs)
ELIAS: Yes. (Anon X laughs) Always.
ANON X: Always, always, always. Okay. Do you want to say something more about what I shared as an example, because you asked me for an example? Why did you do that? And do you want to deepen anything?
ELIAS: What was your thinking and feeling at that time with your father? What was your assessment thereafter?
ANON X: You mean after this experience?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Well… (Chuckles) I'm chuckling now, but it's not funny or humorous or whatever. I'm chuckling because it reminded me of the talk of my sister, with my sister when we talked about our parents. What I did was I kind of tiptoed around him, that he would not ... that I could manage him in this way, that he would not be so threatening or so abusive at times. And if I would acquiesce or comply or whatever he wanted me to... And if it was dangerous, I kind of (pause) held still until he would let me go, until I had a moment to escape the danger.
ELIAS: Very well.
Now; in that, what I'd say is this is also an example of how children begin to make assessments that adults are not safe. But what you—
ANON X: He was not safe.
ELIAS: But what you don't realize is that that applies to more people than you think.
ANON X: What do you mean?
ELIAS: Because eventually everyone grows up to be an adult.
ANON X: Right.
ELIAS: Therefore even your children eventually grow up to be an adult, and then they're not safe.
ANON X: Yeah, but I'm an adult as well so I'm not safe either. You know, I have—
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: I have to include myself into that.
ELIAS: Yes, you do.
ANON X: Yes.
ELIAS: And that colors how you engage with other people.
ANON X: Yes. I guess—
ELIAS: Because—
ANON X: Yeah?
ELIAS: In that, I would say that I remember many, many, many times you expressing in our conversations the question of what was wrong with you, why couldn't you create what you think of as normal friendships and relationships.
ANON X: Mm-hm. I remember. Yeah.
ELIAS: And in that, the underlying pieces come back to not only are not, other people not safe, but you're not safe either and therefore other people won't like you. Which has been a big expression of yours for many years. (Anon X sighs) Therefore this type of experience and trauma is much more affecting than you might think at first pass.
ANON X: Yes. Yes.
ELIAS: Now; what would you say? What could you look at and say that you could recognize as an influence also of this experience? (Pause) How have you protected yourself? What have you developed in relation to your own coping mechanisms?
ANON X: Coping with what?
ELIAS: With any situation that might seem questionable. That you've already made an assessment that it's likely questionable, which is what we were talking about in our previous conversation about your daughter. (Pause) (Anon X sighs) Or coping mechanisms that you've had through the years in relation to your husband and behaviors that you didn't like in association with him.
ANON X: Well. (Sighs).
ELIAS: Or even coping mechanisms in relation to behaviors with your grandchildren.
ANON X: Well (chuckles), the one thing that… that... would be the thread between all the three examples that you touched upon is I withdraw when I'm not feeling comfortable. And it—
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: And it seems to be not resolvable. Together. I mean with my husband, I can resolve everything. It might take a little time or more or less time, but it's a continuous growth. Sometimes I had to wait until I have grown or he has grown or we both together would have grown but this is, I guess, the only person in my life where it works like that. And so…
ELIAS: But there have been times of difficulty with that also.
ANON X: Of course. Of course. But we are now in in our year thirty-five together, and we genuinely enjoy being together. And it's very dynamic, and it’s… all the work that we did with and on our relationship, both sides and together, has paid off, if you might say so.
But you can't, you can't dive as deeply into so many relationships, and that was my kind of thinking error, that… that it would be easier to… to develop relationships that are good, because both sides contribute in ways that makes them good. It's… (Sighs) I don't know. Perhaps this comes from the time when I was in in psychotherapy very early, and I had the people around me in this kind of second socializing and... But the people who are outside of this bubble, so to speak, they are just all... just not, not meaning that as discounting, but they are like normal people, not bubble people. (Chuckles) And I feel that I was looking for a long time for things that were unreasonable to look for.
ELIAS: Such as?
ANON X: More openness, more flow in cooperation, natural flow without any... Yeah, the simple, natural, easy flow with people and contributing from both sides to a functional relationship is, in my experience so far, the rare experience and not the normal experience. And I was thinking that oh, it's maybe me and… or I'm hanging out with the wrong crowd, but it's… it's not very accessible to me, and so it's not the norm. It might be for other people, but it's not in my world. And… and it felt like I have to put up with things that I don't feel comfortable with.
And I know. I know, Elias, and I'm looking so much about… into this topic of reflection. You know, what you project, you reflect. So I look at things that were happening in the past, and I look if this is the reflection, “Same topic, different expression,” you said. And I look at it anew and I think the connection in... from my fear and maybe the trauma effect was that I kind of projected this, you could say rejection, because adults are not safe, or whatever the underlying defining belief or experience, association, assessment, everything was, so in a sense I was steered toward failure.
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: And if I would like rearrange my inner world and project differently, suddenly these people would, might perhaps magically appear in my life. (Chuckles) You see what I mean?
ELIAS: Yes, I do. I understand.
ANON X: Does this make sense?
ELIAS: And—
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: I would say that that's actually correct. It isn't that they magically appear in your life but that, as you may already be aware, there is an actual chemical expression that happens in your body. And when you project out energy, you also are projecting out these chemicals that attract the same types of chemicals. And in that, when you're attracting that, you're attracting other individuals that are like you. This is the cliché "birds of a feather,” but it's actually very accurate. You draw to yourself, or you draw yourself to others that are like you. You don't necessarily know that all the time.
ANON X: Yeah, and it's not always so obvious.
ELIAS: Correct, it's not.
ANON X: Because, I had… We only have four minutes left, and then we have a little break for this interference alarm clock, and then we have five minutes more for someone else, which is arranged with Mary.
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: But I had… I had an acquaintance and I did the wrong thing, as I did until then. I don't do it anymore. I opened up very, very quickly, and I didn't give time to get to know each other, but then he started to be comparatively nasty and… and dissing and everything. And I thought no thanks, I don't want that. He was extreme in his way. And I thought, why is this happening? Why is this happening? Where is the reflection? I'm not so rejecting. I'm not this, I'm not that. But over the… Now again, diving deeply into the project, reflect, and same topic, different version contemplation, I thought okay, he was much more extreme, but I was rejecting in some way as well, especially when I think in comparison to the so-called social worker attitude.
ELIAS: I understand. But many times it moves in the other direction, also.
ANON X: Which means?
ELIAS: Which means that you might be projecting an energy of withdrawing, which then can attract individuals that are obnoxious or abusive, or that are expressing in manners that are harmful or hurtful to you.
ANON X: You mean when I start to withdraw? There was some kind of relationship in the… in the making, but I withdraw and then they become obnoxious?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Okay. Now that would make sense with this person. Another person, where I withdrew, it felt like he was like, “Oh, where is the social hierarchy? And I'm above you, and you are like… And I can look down on you.” and I thought, “Oh, okay. No, thanks. I'm not interested in that.” Or “I have to… I rescue you, and you need to be my little person to be rescued,” and I didn't want to be rescued. (Chuckles) And so—
ELIAS: Correct.
ANON X: And so, I withdrew.
ELIAS: But you see all of these, all of these behaviors are interconnected, and they're all... They all are different parts of the same energy.
ANON X: Yeah. We have to dive into that. We don't have the time today but I want to dive into that because that's interesting and important, I guess, for my—
ELIAS: Very well.
ANON X: For my further progress. (Chuckles)
ELIAS: Yes, and I would agree.
ANON X: And I want… Also have… Briefly, will we talk about my mother as well?
ELIAS: Yes.
ANON X: Okay.
ELIAS: Therefore I want you to think of a memory in relation to her also.
(Audio ends after 56 minutes)
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